Dev Meeting Transcript (April 16, 2021)

[4:00 PM] bless yer heart: Good Afternoon everyone

[4:01 PM] Tron: Good afternoon!

[4:03 PM] brianmct: channel is opened!

[4:04 PM] Jeroz: Let's get ready to ruuuuuuumble

[4:04 PM] HyperPeek: Hi!

[4:04 PM] Wilson. CEO ฿: Ola

[4:04 PM] Wilson. CEO ฿: :beer:

[4:04 PM] RealBokito | assetsexplorer.com: howdy, good evening!

[4:04 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Hola

[4:05 PM] fdov: hi.

[4:05 PM] bless yer heart: I hope everyone had a chance to review the suggested agenda for today's meeting as well as the meeting minutes from last week.

Can we pick up kinda where we left off last week with either Bounties or Transaction malleability?

[4:07 PM] Jeroz: pick one :stuck_out_tongue:

[4:07 PM] bless yer heart: Bounties

[4:07 PM] Jeroz: https://ravencoin.foundation/proposals/

[4:08 PM] Jeroz: But I am guessing organization of them

[4:09 PM] Jeroz: I was not sure from last time if Tron would be the only one judging bounties, or whether he receives the message and lists them under the proposal section

[4:10 PM] Jeroz: The former doesnt seem a good idea to me. There should be more people looking at them

[4:10 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I suggest that we should put in place more organization around bounties. But that is at least partially a Foundation topic.

Is there a plan to set up a weekly open Foundation meeting to focus on such Foundation-related topics?

[4:11 PM] Jeroz: I pinged Mango Farm about that. He was a fan of that idea.

[4:11 PM] Tron: I'm open to a foundation meeting for this.

[4:11 PM] Kronk Stark: Looks like #897 is out for a while, up bounty to 400?

[4:11 PM] Tron: I'd love to get it off my plate, or distribute the load.

[4:11 PM] fdov: If accepted, I have closed two of the ones on the list. 897 one of them.

[4:12 PM] fdov: 902 and 897

[4:12 PM] Tron: My primary concern is that of collusion or a developer setting their own bounty.

[4:12 PM] Jeroz: How would you circumvent that?

[4:12 PM] Tron: I wrote those down fdov

[4:12 PM] Kronk Stark: #FoundationBudgetMeeting

[4:13 PM] Jeroz: Since devs judging bounties are inherently interested in working on rvn

[4:13 PM] bless yer heart: Last week we discussed potential options for deciding bounty numbers.

a few options suggested were:

– a bid system, with veto power

– a suggestion system

[4:13 PM] Tron: I just had my second vaccine so I may crash after this meeting, but I can get it paid over the weekend. Crypto doesn't close.

[4:13 PM] fdov: Tron good, no need to up the bounty. as mentioned.

[4:15 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I agree that conflict-of-interest is a problem. But devs are also the subject matter experts best suited to understand the level of difficulty. We need to work out rules about the devs setting the bounties not benefiting from them. Abuse is possible, but can be minimized

[4:15 PM] Tron: I really like the bid system, once we have more developers. "I can write that code in X RVN." — "Well, I can write that code in X-100 RVN!"

[4:15 PM] brianmct: Could consider a tier system (for complexity) plus a raising-price auction type approach (increase bounty by X% every Y weeks)

[4:16 PM] brianmct: I guess the issue with bid systems is that it only works if there are multiple developers bidding

[4:16 PM] brianmct: and also someone needs to "accept" the bid

[4:16 PM] Tron: If we want to set a date/time for next week for a bounty discussion, I'm open to that.

[4:18 PM] Tron: Tuesday afternoon or Thursday afternoon works for me.

[4:18 PM] bless yer heart: Thursday is best for me.

[4:19 PM] Tron: Thursday 4pm MT?

[4:19 PM] Tron: I want to be sensitive to other time zones, so let me know if there's a better time.

[4:21 PM] Jeroz: SInce we are planning meetings.

Tron, the ravenqt-sig would very much like to have regular meetings with you in #ravenqt-sig-meetings about ravencoin core. Their weekly meeting is on wednesdays at 4:30 pm EST, 20:30 UTC, 22:30 MESZ. Are you able to join those and is that a time that would suit you?

[4:21 PM] Jeroz: They use a voice channel for it

[4:21 PM] Kronk Stark: marketing on wed as well 4pm est

[4:22 PM] bless yer heart: Ill add these meetings to the minutes for reminder.

[4:23 PM] HyperPeek: I dont think we need a regular meeting actually, but there are some initial issues to be discussed.

[4:23 PM] HyperPeek: Could be on-demand after that — but a time that suits everyone would be good.

[4:23 PM] Tron: I have a meeting on Wed at 3:30 MT (5:30 ET), but as long as I can jump out right at 5:30 ET, I can make that.

[4:24 PM] Jeroz: Does that work HyperPeek Hans_Schmidt ?

[4:24 PM] HyperPeek: That should be no problem — we always finished there so far

[4:25 PM] HyperPeek: Electrum-sig is after that anyway

[4:25 PM] Tron: Whoops, I have a meeting at 4:30 ET to 5:00 ET, but I could join at 5 ET.

[4:26 PM] Tron: I put it on the calendar from 5 to 5:30 ET. The other meeting can probably be shifted for the future, but it is set to weekly.

[4:26 PM] Jeroz: I might be able to jump in too for like 30 mins at that time (23:00 local)

[4:27 PM] HyperPeek: Ohh I mixed up too — its 3:30h for qt-sig — 4:30 for electrum.

[4:27 PM] HyperPeek: Can we swap them Hans_Schmidt ?

[4:28 PM] fdov: works for me.

[4:28 PM] HyperPeek: Anyway, we will sort it..

[4:28 PM] bless yer heart: Transaction malleability was another item from last week that we never finished…

[4:29 PM] Tron: I read up on it some, and I don't think all forms have been fixed in Ravencoin.

[4:29 PM] Jeroz: looks like segwit fixes it

[4:30 PM] Jeroz: sauce: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_malleability

Transaction malleability

[4:30 PM] Hans_Schmidt: We could discuss moving the raven-qt meeting if needed. Tron, your regular attendance would be welcome and helpful, but we could also do as-needed. The raven-qt meeting is 1:30 MT Wednesdays (3:30 EDT)

[4:30 PM] Tron: Oh, I'm good from 1:30 to 2:30 MT

[4:31 PM] HyperPeek: Time zones make me crazy :joy:

[4:31 PM] Tron: I shifted it on my calendar.

[4:32 PM] HyperPeek: Ok, lets do next wed 1:30 MT then.

[4:32 PM] HyperPeek: We should be close to a first version of p2sh then

[4:33 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Which is what it currently is :slight_smile:

[4:33 PM] HyperPeek: yes — I meant including Tron :slight_smile:

[4:34 PM] bless yer heart: Does SegWit fix all of it though?

[4:35 PM] Tron: It should fix the transaction malleability issue. That's how it was fixed in Bitcoin.

[4:35 PM] Hans_Schmidt: It fixes it. But even on bitcoin, where Segwit is fully functional, only transactions for which every input uses Segwit, are non-malleable.

[4:37 PM] HyperPeek: Still the best we can do, I guess. We can not enforce segwit probably

[4:37 PM] Kronk Stark: disable non segwit plaforms? any way to do that?

[4:37 PM] HyperPeek: No option, I think

[4:38 PM] Tron: Yes, but we want to keep the compatibility.

[4:38 PM] Tron: Bitcoin still uses non-segwit. 1…. addresses vs. bc…. addresses.

[4:38 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I'm not suggesting any change to Segwit. Just wanted to be precise about what it fixes.

[4:38 PM] Jeroz: people need to use segwit addresses if they want to minimize the risks

[4:39 PM] Tron: It's really only for lightning, or transactions that are chained together but off-chain.

[4:39 PM] Kronk Stark: So put old client download on another page? and then have marketing push segwit message to everyone?

[4:40 PM] Jeroz: I think we should focus on this once we are done with P2SH

[4:40 PM] HyperPeek: Yes, agree :slight_smile:

[4:40 PM] Kronk Stark: k let me know and we send the ravens

[4:41 PM] Tron: We need to do a better job with addresses. It is really confusing for people on Bitcoin. Can we keep the address structure the same?

[4:41 PM] Mango Farm: I'm a little late but saw your ping Jeroz – yes I'm a fan.

[4:42 PM] bless yer heart: Add transaction malleability to Old Business with an action date of (post P2SH)?

[4:42 PM] Mango Farm: Lots of burden on Tron for these things. Spreading the load –> great idea

[4:43 PM] fdov: If I understand it correctly, no, I don't think we can.

[4:45 PM] Kronk Stark: Can we at least have it start with an "R"

[4:45 PM] Jeroz: rc1

[4:45 PM] fdov: Kronk Stark bech32 is all lowercase.

[4:46 PM] Hans_Schmidt: So did we end up picking a meeting time for the Foundation meeting? 4:30pm MT Thursday was proposed which is 22:30 UTC (past midnight in Europe)

[4:46 PM] bless yer heart: 4PM MT

[4:47 PM] HyperPeek: Ok for me :slight_smile:

[4:47 PM] Tron: Where is it going to be?

[4:47 PM] bless yer heart: Here or Ravencoin Campus

[4:47 PM] Jeroz: Mango Farm would you be able to make that too (4pm)?

[4:47 PM] Mango Farm: Checking

[4:48 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Sorry- 4:00pm MT Thursday, 22:00 UTC

[4:48 PM] Mango Farm: Yes I can make that. The first Thursday of each month I have a conflict if we go long. Works for me.

[4:49 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Sold! :slight_smile: ??

[4:49 PM] Tron: Location? In Ravencoin Campus – Team Suites?

[4:49 PM] Jeroz: there are some people with linux

[4:50 PM] Jeroz: who cant attend ravencoin campus

[4:50 PM] Tron: Ah, ok. Where would you suggest?

[4:50 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I think it should be a discord channel. Voice is ok.

[4:50 PM] Tron: Ok, do we have a channel?

[4:50 PM] Jeroz: Could you add a foundation voice channel? :rvn_heart_2:

[4:50 PM] Jeroz: brianmct

[4:51 PM] Hans_Schmidt: It might be important to have a written text record. What do you all think?

[4:51 PM] Kronk Stark: strong voices run long on voice chats

[4:51 PM] ravencoin maximalist 🧘🏻♂: Why not livestream the discord screen from within the ravencoin campus?

[4:51 PM] Jeroz: I think the minutes that you post weekly was fine for me tbh

[4:52 PM] Mango Farm: Like this idea

[4:52 PM] bless yer heart: Short on time push:

A few items to make aware to the team,

– Check out the update to the extended ravencoin metadata specification (RIP 15)

– Development for a branded phone app for the AtomixDEX is in the works, contact Deadheded for more info

[4:52 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I wouldn't want to represent the Foundation by publishing the minutes

[4:53 PM] unclear: https://rvn.cryptoscope.io/address/?address=rc1q7slnxwjavccghqhsj0p40phsaru4u5dm233rtx

Would be good to keep it as it was before

Solus Explorer

Solus Explorer for Ravencoin project. Address balances, smart address groping, blocks, transactions, assets, markets, blockchain statistics and more.

[4:53 PM] Jeroz: nah, someone else would need to do that then. I just used yours as an example; that posting just the minutes would be fine for me.

[4:53 PM] bless yer heart: Ill gather a list of all of the meetings through the week here in discord and post.

[4:53 PM] Tron: I had a conversation with Komodo in TX. They should be sending me a list of anything else they might need to be able to put assets on AtomicDEX.

[4:55 PM] RealBokito | assetsexplorer.com: RIP15:

I propose everyone look at https://github.com/RealBokito/Extended-Ravencoin-Metadata-Specification

I am trying to have some prototypes ready tomorrow….

[4:56 PM] Jeroz: how old is that yaris? edit: oh 2019.

[4:57 PM] fdov: If we are short on time, I will propose Jeroz becoming github.com admin for RavenProject. He is available 24/7, and I think the community trust him. Github does need some love. What do you all think about that?

[4:58 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I strongly support that. Productivity has been somewhat handicapped due to lack of administrative rights on the github account, which prevents adjusting settings to use the most appropriate workflow.

[4:59 PM] HyperPeek: We will keep security as is, but need overriding in case of needed cleanups, like now for develop

[4:59 PM] Jeroz: Thanks. Im starting to know git pretty well since both my day jobs also use git now, but im no cpp dev. So I will not approve changes that I cant read. Some of the qt stuff is easy enough though. This would be up to the current git devs / admins of course.

[5:00 PM] HyperPeek: Its only about changing settings like dev-branch protection for a single force-push e.g.

[5:00 PM] Hans_Schmidt: The problematic admin settings change day-to-day. We will discuss and describe the adjustments. The core issue is that the SIGs should own the github accounts and other accounts which they use (or at least have admin access). Anything else reduces productivity and is centralization in any case.

[5:03 PM] bless yer heart: Does RVN GitHub need an overhaul by way of organization?

[5:04 PM] fdov: Long term, I agree with Hans. Short term, I think the community trust Jeroz to handle it.

[5:04 PM] Hans_Schmidt: The question has been the advantages/disadvantages of the RavenQt SIG trying to use Bruce Fenton's RavenProject github account, or whether for the sake of decentralization it should use its own SIG github account like the Electrum SIG is doing. The SIG does not currently have admin rights on Bruce's account.

[5:04 PM] Kronk Stark: I'll give 100 raven to any dev that sits with Blockchain John in Raven Campus and does a podcast. We would love some good content to show the world the raven "murder" as in a flock of raven?

[5:04 PM] Tron: I don't think it needs an overhaul. It could use some documentation to help others find the other accounts for DevKit, Marketing, Foundation, etc.

[5:05 PM] bless yer heart: Im willing to assist with that.

[5:05 PM] fdov: I don't think it needs an overhaul either. It needs some love, in the form of updating docs, handling issues, etc.

[5:05 PM] bless yer heart: ill work with Jeroz if help is needed.

[5:06 PM] HyperPeek: Yes — and all PR's against develop again, not master… :slight_smile:

[5:06 PM] HyperPeek: Once that is all in place

[5:07 PM] Hans_Schmidt: We want to / need to do the security correctly. We have ended up with hacks like develop-sig branch to bypass security because we don't have admin rights.

[5:08 PM] HyperPeek: I think we are close — can use the web interface again for new PR's, but the previous ones needed cleanup.

[5:08 PM] Tron: I'll figure out the admin by Monday.

[5:09 PM] Tron: If there's something you need before Monday, send me a message.

[5:11 PM] bless yer heart: Beyond the notifications in the suggested agenda and the items already discussed. Does the Electrum SIG still need volunteers?

[5:11 PM] Jeroz: always

[5:11 PM] HyperPeek: Yes

[5:11 PM] bless yer heart: will keep it on the minutes then

[5:11 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I think we can continue making progress using our current techniques until Monday, and then discuss with you the longer term correct workflow and security in Wednesday's SIG meeting

[5:12 PM] Mango Farm: Hans_Schmidt Jeroz can you give a 30 second update on where you are on electrum? I read the minutes, but didn't get a sense of anticipated timeline for assets/porting the new electrum.

[5:12 PM] Mango Farm: Watching eagerly

[5:12 PM] fdov: Hans_Schmidt HyperPeek A force-push of current develop-sig into develop – would help alot, right? it's like 60 seconds in a shell.

[5:13 PM] HyperPeek: Yes — or rename

[5:13 PM] brianmct: I can add it, can you post the specific request (name / permissions / etc) in #development ? In a work meeting right now, will get to it in 30 mins

[5:13 PM] Jeroz: I think that's hard to project since the devs overlap between electrum and core atm. Theres certainly more help needed for electrum to document functions and to investigate for example bch SLP electrum wallet.

[5:13 PM] Mango Farm: Tx

[5:14 PM] HyperPeek: Plan is:

– get new official version out with fixes

– then focus on assets — we already look into the technical details

[5:14 PM] Tron: :thumbsup:

[5:14 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I think we are in fairly good shape for RVN-only. Asset support is a big job and we have only three volunteers working in the SIG, so a timeline is hard to give.

[5:14 PM] Mango Farm: Great. Thanks for the update guys.

[5:15 PM] Hans_Schmidt: True. Are you asking this of Tron before Monday?

[5:16 PM] Jeroz: There should be builds now for all operating systems. I think it would be good to put it on ravencoin.org. And also tweet it on the ravencoin handle once the SIG puts out the official RVN release.

[5:16 PM] Hans_Schmidt: All these admin things are like 60 seconds if you have authority

[5:16 PM] fdov: Hans_Schmidt First checking with you. I don't have a specific need. Currently isn't this our only issue?

[5:16 PM] HyperPeek: One thing that would help is someone with a vision of where assets go define what would be nice to have on electrum. If possible or not does not matter atm — just a wish-list

[5:17 PM] Mango Farm: I can definitely help with those kinds of things.

[5:17 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I personally think we can wait until Monday. We have other things we can work on until then.

[5:17 PM] Mango Farm: I'll try to spend more time digging in, HyperPeek.

[5:18 PM] Mango Farm: But first steps are obviously to get asset signing done through Python, without reference to the GUI

[5:18 PM] HyperPeek: Perfect — even if its just a short list it would help us to define the server / client parts.

[5:19 PM] Mango Farm: Any progress on getting Trezor/Ledger to sign assets via Electrum? I know that work was being done on that, but haven't seen much lately. That's going to be a piece of work.

[5:20 PM] HyperPeek: I submitted Trezor firmware for tRVN as a PR that was accepted.

[5:20 PM] Mango Farm: Sorry I know we are going long. I can ask these questions in the appropriate SIG too.

[5:20 PM] Mango Farm: Outstanding

[5:20 PM] Jeroz: I didnt even notice the time :rofl:

[5:20 PM] Mango Farm: : )

[5:20 PM] bless yer heart: This is yall's time. Use at discretion.

[5:21 PM] Mango Farm: Excited to have assets on Trezor

[5:21 PM] HyperPeek: Yes, me too :slight_smile:

[5:23 PM] Hans_Schmidt: I think next week we will spend some time re-organizing where all the Electrum info is and getting it better exposure in the hope of getting more volunteers

[5:24 PM] bless yer heart: Great meeting everyone. Im going to check out. But will review and submit the minutes as well.

Thank you all again for being KAWesome.

dont judge me.

[5:25 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Good Meeting.

[5:25 PM] HyperPeek: Yes!

[5:26 PM] fdov: … for everyone who commits to github, i suggest looking into gpg-signing commits. it's easy, and it verifies that the commit comes from you. good meeting. :rvn_heart_2:

[5:27 PM] Tron: Thanks everyone for helping out so much. I'm off to recover from the 2nd Moderna shot.

[5:27 PM] Tron: I think there's an option to require it.

[5:27 PM] Mango Farm: Have a great weekend everyone. Recover well Tron!

[5:28 PM] fdov: We can discuss that, I think the regulars should try to do it, in a project like this.

[5:29 PM] fdov: It can be a brand new key, not tied to your personal one, does not require any web of trust verification.

[5:30 PM] brianmct: Alright, I'm going to close this channel if there's nothing else. See you all next week!