Dev Meeting Transcript (October 29, 2021)

[3:59 PM] Tron: Channel is open.

[3:59 PM] Wolfsokta: Awesome! Hey Tron

[4:00 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): Greetings all

[4:00 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): What's happening

[4:01 PM] kralverde 🇺🇸 {CULT OF JOE}: When do you all expect to merge p2sh?

[4:01 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): the question on everyone's mind

[4:03 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): uhhhhh

[4:04 PM] boatsandhoes: +1

[4:05 PM] Tron: Just a few more changes to address/fix/ignore the issues brought up by the security audit report.

[4:05 PM] boatsandhoes: Any way we can do the fork vote Nov 5th?

[4:06 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): lol, 3 years later, assets get p2sh, would be apropos

[4:06 PM] Wolfsokta: That would be cool!

[4:06 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): It's probably late though. WE would need to achieve consensus 1.4 days in advance of the 5th

[4:07 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): so that the new code would activate at a block height occurring within Nov 5

[4:07 PM] Tron: Just a reminder that there is a meetup in Ravencoin Campus tonight at 8pm ET.

[4:08 PM] Wolfsokta: Date night in Ravenland!

[4:08 PM] Tron: https://download.ravencoincampus.org/

[4:08 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): I am going to say what has been on a few peoples minds. These meetings have been very sparsely attended and haven't contained a lot of commentary on the state of development. That pattern is not one I find acceptable. Tron, can you comment on that trend? Is there simply not much development to discuss?

[4:09 PM] Tron: https://twitter.com/Humble_Miner/status/1450646655158599680/photo/1

[4:10 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): I think a lot of people would like to see a bit more commentary during these meetings, if there is any to be made. I understand that the Foundation and Ravencoin are separate things, but it could be approrpiate to discuss the state of the foundation and any events/actions you've been involved in each week, Tron

[4:10 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): For whatever reason, you have seemed somewhat laissez faire in the last several meetings

[4:11 PM] Wolfsokta: I'm really hoping that we can get some traction on developing the Mineable Assets proposal further and getting some bounties created soon.

[4:11 PM] Tron: We are at the tail end of a long development cycle. The project is valued at over a billion dollars, not including the value of assets, and so it is, by design, a slower, more careful approach.

[4:11 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): I also recall that in the past you've at least stated things about being unable to talk about certain things due to disclosure agreements and such. As was the case with Finclusive, years ago I believe

[4:11 PM] Wolfsokta: Agreed

[4:12 PM] Tron: There is a new discussion of mineable assets. Everyone should look at the proposal and give feedback. This will probably be added to the roadmap soon. Wolfsokta is writing up the specs.

[4:13 PM] M4R1M0: This "development cycle" has just been adding functionality that should have already been in place when assets were launched. Would be nice to get some discussion surrounding new innovations for Ravencoin.

[4:13 PM] Tron: The goal with mineable assets is to allow projects to mine tokens into existence with wide distribution, and keep some of the mined tokens to fund the project.

[4:14 PM] Tron: The "coinbase" space will have a cost, but for some projects, it will provide automatic distribution and awareness.

[4:14 PM] Wolfsokta: WETx was on the main stage at the Silicon Slopes tech conference in Salt Lake City. This was our first slide.

[4:15 PM] Tron: Currently, the proposal is 1 RVN per mined block that has the new mined asset. The asset issuer can decide how frequently to have their asset in the blocks as well as a max distribution.

[4:16 PM] Tron: There will be bounties posted for both proposals after the feedback is collected and the designed refined.

[4:16 PM] Wolfsokta: I'm working on the specs now, and will likely post them as an Issue in github.

[4:16 PM] boatsandhoes: Is the goal to get minable assets in the next fork, or is this a down the line thing?

[4:17 PM] Wolfsokta: Probably not in the next one.

[4:17 PM] Wolfsokta: We'll want to really test the new feature well and have a security review.

[4:17 PM] Tron: Oh, the other proposal is for the emulation of the RPC calls to make it easier to integrate mined or issued tokens into exchanges that are used to RPC calls for Bitcoin/Litecoin/Ravencoin/Dogecoin, etc.

[4:18 PM] Tron: https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/tree/master/roadmap/compatibility-mode

[4:18 PM] Wolfsokta: That will make it easier for exchanges to list the Mineable Assets, as well as any other asset on RVN.

[4:20 PM] boatsandhoes: Is there an ETA on this?

[4:22 PM] Wolfsokta: Timing will depend on devs picking up the bounties. That's hard to estimate.

[4:22 PM] Wolfsokta: I'd like to work with the Foundation to have the bounties defined in the next week or so.

[4:22 PM] boatsandhoes: Wait there are bounties that need to be done in order to get the P2SH fork out?

[4:23 PM] Wolfsokta: I thought you were talking about Mineable Assets and Compatibility mode.

[4:23 PM] boatsandhoes: I was not

[4:24 PM] boatsandhoes: the board has not had a meeting in 5 months, I think they should get their (the non profit) affairs in order before they bite off more

[4:25 PM] Tron: I don't have a time frame. If there are PRs, I'll review and approve them.

[4:25 PM] Tron: The board has met each month. The notes need to be posted.

[4:27 PM] boatsandhoes: Sorry a bit foggy, what specifically needs to happen in order to initiate the fork for P2SH?

[4:30 PM] Tron: Each of the issues brought up in the security audit needs to be addressed/fixed/ignored. By ignored, I mean that a quick write-up needs to be done as to why it isn't a real problem. The block # start and % need to be set for the fork. The version number needs to be set. The code needs to be merged. All the binaries (Windows, Mac, Linux) need to be built and signed.

[4:30 PM] boatsandhoes: Thank you

[4:32 PM] boatsandhoes: Has anyone started to break down each issue of the audit yet?

[4:33 PM] Wolfsokta: It would be good to create github Issues for each of them and start knocking them out.

[4:36 PM] boatsandhoes: Indeed. It's hard to believe that someone has not already done so.

I don't mind doing it, but don't want to do work that has already been done

[4:37 PM] Tron: There have been comments and analysis of the items in the security report, but I am unaware of any issues created or code changes.

[4:37 PM] boatsandhoes: fdov you had comments on the audit right?

[4:37 PM] Tron: Some of the issues are of a nature that the security analysis is correct, but a change (fix) will potentially cause a fork. These need to be handled carefully, or just documented as to why the change isn't being applied.

[4:38 PM] boatsandhoes: If foundation money goes anywhere it may be best to hire a person who is capable of doing things like this, and by default (because they are being paid) has the time

[4:39 PM] boatsandhoes: ^will table that for next open foundation meeting

[4:39 PM] Tron: At least one of the issues is just completely wrong and needs to be documented as such and then ignored.

[4:40 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): what issue is completely wrong?

[4:41 PM] Tron: The issue about secure_string.

[4:41 PM] Wolfsokta: 🙂 Yeah it was pointing out a security risk in .NET…

[4:42 PM] Wolfsokta: .NET isn't used anywhere in the RVN code.

[4:42 PM] Tron: https://discord.com/channels/429127343165145089/482289959261175838/898210263831019541

[4:43 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): ah, okay I recall this

[4:43 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): and yes, it speaks to the alleged lack of utility of the auditors

[4:43 PM] boatsandhoes: Starting the github issue, will ask a mod to ping to news go get eyes on it when submitted

[4:44 PM] boatsandhoes: if only there was a rate my teacher for crypto audits 🤷‍♂️

[4:47 PM] boatsandhoes: anything else that needs to be addressed today?

[4:48 PM] Wolfsokta: What can I do to help Tron to get the next release out the door?

[4:48 PM] shimperr: Ya have not posted in 6 months but who is counting

[4:48 PM] boatsandhoes: Wolfsokta I'll tag you with the github issue if you can help with that there are only 5 things

[4:49 PM] shimperr: Don’t think it was answered so I will ask again do we have a date on the hard fork?

[4:49 PM] Wolfsokta: Okay, I think it'd be better to have 5 issues then rather than a single big one.

[4:50 PM] shimperr: Tbh mining assets sounds fun but I think there should be a push for messages to asset holders function

[4:50 PM] boatsandhoes: Okay, I'll do it that way, np

[4:51 PM] Tron: The core protocol already has messages. It is up to wallets or websites to publish the info.

[4:52 PM] shimperr: Can you link any info on this? I have never seen this would love to use this

[4:52 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): it's been in the console for ages

[4:52 PM] shimperr: Or anyone really

[4:53 PM] Tron: There is not a fixed date for the fork. There will be a start date added to the code so it can start monitoring the network for actively mined blocks with the new code and counting them.

[4:53 PM] shimperr: To send ipfs to asset holders from the main asset?

[4:54 PM] shimperr: What is the time line the devs thinking this would happen

[4:54 PM] Tron: Probably late Nov to Dec for the binaries.

[4:55 PM] shimperr: Thanks

[4:57 PM] fdov: yes, the audit is useless. They have no clue how Ravencoin works. Their suggestions would create a minimum of 2 hard-forks on their own. Waste of time and energy. They found only non-issues or minor nit which has nothing to do with security of functionality. Only maintainability and cleanness. As an example they claim we should fix at least two "issues" in code we have that is identical to bitcoin. I trust bitcoin more than I trust some random dudes writing that report.

[4:57 PM] shimperr: I will look into the messaging but I know it’s not in the GUI

[4:57 PM] boatsandhoes: Just submitted the issues/ 5 vulnerabilities

[4:57 PM] boatsandhoes: https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/issues/new

[4:59 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): waiting 10 months to implement code that should have existed on november 5 2018 because we need to wait for a company to tell us wrong stuff is embarassing

[4:59 PM] shimperr: We did have a 300 million rvn exploit because someone let the code in

[5:00 PM] boatsandhoes: In your eyes, is there anything that needs to change before the P2SH fork is put out for vote?

[5:00 PM] shimperr: Which we will not go into why that happened

[5:00 PM] boatsandhoes: agreed

[5:01 PM] boatsandhoes: but still, got to do due diligence

[5:01 PM] shimperr: But from my understanding this fork needs to happen quickly

[5:02 PM] fdov: This happens because this project has close to no developers. With only 2-3-4 guys doing any coding, the trust in the code is limited. Not much peer-review etc. The solution is to delay and pay for reports.

[5:02 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): and we recently seem to have all but lost Hans

[5:02 PM] boatsandhoes: fdov would you mind helping to comment on the audit suggestions on github so we can get the ball rolling? I already made 5 issues

[5:03 PM] Wolfsokta: That would be awesome.

[5:03 PM] boatsandhoes: 🙏

[5:03 PM] fdov: Currently it is a hard-fork, if implemented like it is currently on testnet. So yes, if it is "activated" it will kick all the old clients off. Everyone will need to update within a limited timeframe.

[5:04 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): it needs to happen with a BIP9 and high consensus so we don't split the chain unnecessarily

[5:04 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): not "quickly"

[5:04 PM] fdov: Everyone will be gone with this pace. There are 1000 other projects for anyone interested.

[5:04 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): seems like it yeah

[5:04 PM] Sevvy (Natural 1): so what do we do

[5:04 PM] LSJI07 – BWS: Based on the previous fork what timescales are we looking at between releasing the new release and starting bip9?

[5:05 PM] shimperr: 80 percent approved and we good that’s not the problem the issue is doing it when the devs feel good about the fork

[5:05 PM] boatsandhoes: Tron there is also an issue with a sizable % of those authorized to approve code changes on github being afk for years. There really are only a couple gatekeepers( you included) for this. If changes are going to happen, that list needs to be culled then opened up

[5:05 PM] boatsandhoes: just my 2 Sats on that

[5:06 PM] Tron: Agreed

[5:07 PM] boatsandhoes: Tron I can't find the link you posted a while ago that showed all the users who could approve code changes. Do you mind sharing that link again?

[5:08 PM] fdov: We can select that in the code. I don't recall the consensus, or if we agreed on anyting, but I do recall I once had some opinion on how to do it.

[5:09 PM] boatsandhoes: Minable assets and stuff sounds cool (maybe) but it looks more and more like attention should be focused on Dev Ops

[5:09 PM] boatsandhoes: at least at this current time

[5:09 PM] boatsandhoes: Chatturga is that in your wheel house?

[5:11 PM] Chatturga: Minable assets, or code change approvals?

[5:11 PM] LSJI07 – BWS: I remember vaguely it was set to something like 6 weeks, or close to that, and exchanges and pools were mostly done in a 2 week period. Jeroz wielded the force and did some amazing work on that imo.

[5:11 PM] boatsandhoes: code changes and logistics

[5:12 PM] Chatturga: Negative, I dont have the permissions to approve code changes.

[5:12 PM] boatsandhoes: But if you did?

[5:12 PM] boatsandhoes: SpyderDev ghosted so hard

[5:13 PM] Wolfsokta: Some DevOps work would be awesome and would speed all future development.

[5:13 PM] boatsandhoes: he ( SpyderDev ) should def be removed so someone else can take the spot. Chatturga if you are up for that you have my nomination

[5:14 PM] Chatturga: If I had any knowledge of coding I might be inclined, but I have no idea what I would be approving, so I'm probably not the best choice 🙂

[5:14 PM] boatsandhoes: what is the url for that?

[5:15 PM] Wolfsokta: Hello Chatturga! It's nice to hear from you.

[5:15 PM] Wolfsokta: It's been too long.

[5:15 PM] boatsandhoes: you're a better choice than the current, which is basically no one

[5:15 PM] Chatturga: Heya Wolf 🙂 It's been a LONG time since Ive typed that

[5:16 PM] shimperr: Outside collaborator? Lol

[5:16 PM] Chatturga: Are we still on triangle target? 😉

[5:17 PM] shimperr: A beta move

[5:17 PM] Tron: New lists….

[5:18 PM] boatsandhoes: we should prob wrap it up for this week.

Tron if you could share the url to that list that would be much appreciated

[5:18 PM] shimperr: Tron does Bruce have to approve all code due to ownership?

[5:18 PM] Wolfsokta: no

[5:18 PM] Mango Farm: Of course not Joe learn how to use Github or comment in the nest

[5:19 PM] Wolfsokta: The URL is in the admin section of github so it wouldn't do much good to non-admins

[5:19 PM] Tron: I think the URLs require permission. https://github.com/orgs/RavenProject/teams/ravendevs/members

[5:19 PM] boatsandhoes: the link is a 404

[5:19 PM] Tron: https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/settings/access

[5:20 PM] Wolfsokta: The URL is in the admin section of github so it wouldn't do much good to non-admins

[5:20 PM] boatsandhoes: Tron can you hook it up with admin read only for me please?

[5:21 PM] shimperr: Nice censorship deflection but tron has said this in the past I was just saying it again

[5:21 PM] Tron: What's your GitHub username?

[5:22 PM] fdov: corviato1

[5:23 PM] boatsandhoes: corviato1

[5:24 PM] Tron: Invited as read-only.

[5:24 PM] boatsandhoes: Thank you 🙏

[5:26 PM] Mango Farm: Tron the BTC Github repo publishes a list of the keys for the 7 people able to verify commits. It might be a good idea to add that to the public side (rather than the admin side) of the Github repo for RVN, along with information on who has commit ability.

[5:26 PM] Mango Farm: so it isn't an invite only kind of thing

[5:26 PM] Mango Farm: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/verify-commits/trusted-keys

[5:26 PM] Mango Farm: just because that's the way github allows access to admin info

[5:27 PM] fdov: Mango FarmI don't think RVN has ever used GPG-keys or signing. We cleaned up the remains from bitcoin a few months ago.

[5:27 PM] fdov: But I agree it's a good idea, and it should be used.

[5:27 PM] Mango Farm: understood – more referring to the list that Tron posted above, in a publicly accessible place (even if no GPG keys are used)

[5:28 PM] boatsandhoes: +1

[5:28 PM] shimperr: Probably pretty good info to know people only been begging for 2 years

[5:29 PM] shimperr: Always been in secret

[5:29 PM] Mango Farm: Tron has published the list on several occasions; the list for Bitcoin is a set of seven numbers

[5:30 PM] fdov: ah, understand. Agree.

[5:31 PM] shimperr: Still not public info

[5:31 PM] shimperr: Today

[5:31 PM] boatsandhoes: I need to head out. Hope you guys have awesome week, and we get P2SH out as timely as possible 🤙 🍻

[5:32 PM] Mango Farm: have a great weekend Boats

[5:32 PM] Wolfsokta: Scroll up shimperr

[5:32 PM] Chatturga: See ya Boats

[5:32 PM] Wolfsokta: Thanks boatsandhoes

[5:33 PM] M4R1M0: This has been stated a few times now and keeps getting glossed over/ignored it seems. Something needs to be done about pace of development or we may soon find ourselves unable to even source developers for bounties.

[5:34 PM] Wolfsokta: I need to head out too. It was great to chat with you all again.

[5:34 PM] Chatturga: Take care Wolf

[5:34 PM] Wolfsokta: You too

[5:34 PM] Tron: I'm off too. I hope to see everyone's avatars at the meetup tonight in Ravencoin Campus.

[5:35 PM] Mango Farm: See you there Tron

[5:35 PM] Mango Farm: I'm going to go get ready for it. See everyone next time.

[5:35 PM] Tron: Closing the channel.