Dev Meeting Transcripts (June, 2022)
[11:50 AM] Tron: I will likely be driving during today's mtg. I'm testing the beta of Moontree wallet. I like it. There were some issues with the RVN Wallet this week (see twitter). The API feeding the RVN price to the app failed. It looks like it is back.
[11:53 AM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I'll go ahead and give you an update now, then – this week I used RavenCore QT to mint some assets and then sent those out to various P2SH multisig addresses created via electrum. I then sent some from one P2SH address to another. Both times asset_audit.py passed. So it would appear to me that there is no issue with P2SH and auditability after all?
[4:00 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Channel open!
[4:01 PM] BadGuyTy: YAY Thanks kinkajou (SegWit Clique)!
[4:14 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Those P2SH tests were the only update I had for this week. CosmicDruid π π π½ BadGuyTy did either of you have something you wanted to discuss?
[4:15 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: thank you! i forgot!
[4:15 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: i do actually!
[4:16 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: I have been working hard to create a Gateway? an Avenue between Ravencoin Developers and other Ravencoin users!
[4:16 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: and I truly believe that RavencoinHelperOS WILL help with this.
[4:16 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: https://ravencoinhelper.com/generative-artwork-for-everyone-at-ravencoin/
[4:17 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: This project IS. (well its 80%) already Open Sourced, and the rest of it, that i have customized will be shortly, once i know things are working.
[4:18 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: Shortly Beta2, i will be releasing PoW, AND an update functionality that is based off of Debian Repository, that will allow Developers to add their projects, Both Free and Paid.
[4:18 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: it has almost everything that's needed. it has webserver / database, php, python, etc. and best of all its in LInux!
[4:18 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: I'm also working on an Easier web interface for the typical person to use it.
[4:19 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: And i'm hoping i can get some Developers to work with me and others, to create a Free (or paid) Generative Artwork for Ravencoin NFTs!
[4:20 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: the Developers audience is: WinDoze, Linux, OSX & Raspberry PI 4b and up.
[4:24 PM] BadGuyTy: just thinking here but would having it dockerized also make it more accessible for the masses. that way they could spin-up or have spun-up for them a docker container that contains everything needed for the os?
[4:25 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: i thought about that too! yes agreed
[4:26 PM] BadGuyTy: hmm that would be a cool project to make windows spin up docer containers automagically through a shortcut
[4:26 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: i'm hoping that giving this away gets all the developers talking more, and doing stuff on it, now that there is a ravencoin framework? platform to share and collaborate on.
[4:31 PM] BadGuyTy: yeah that would be nice. It is strange that for as big and active of a community as we have I would think there was more dev going on
[4:32 PM] BadGuyTy: I'm kinda scared that after the ether merge we won't see the hashrate bump I would hope for
[4:35 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: i'm thinking there will just be more developed apps, which leads to more stability, more usage, and more focus. this is why i'm trying hard to get it out there, so that the Dev's can start talking with each other and seeing each others work, and the users can also see it, and use it, and in return this will create a perpetual motion to get ravencoin moving in the right direction!
[4:35 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: I used to manage Developers, as well as maintain networks. sooo. i know a think or two π
[4:36 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: and me giving "it all away' eventually will inspire others not to "fear of being used" . i know its out there for Developers. So i believe in lead by example! Namaste!
[4:37 PM] BadGuyTy: Yup thats why Squawker is out there. Fear not!
[4:38 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: i'm eyeing Squawker too! gonna bug him too when I get Beta 2 out!
[4:40 PM] BadGuyTy: the issue is that squawker doesn't have anything resembling an app ui.
[4:40 PM] Kai.: papa you around.
[4:40 PM] BadGuyTy: and the dev is lazy
[4:41 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: ahhh. well that's why i'm hoping an incentive, even if its as low as 4 RVN for a paid application, will turn out to be thousands of RVN when the people start coming to use it
[4:49 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: I could talk with you guys all day, and philosophize, but not feeling great right now so saying bye for now! contact me if you want to discuss anything development related and see if we can get your project, any project more attention! Namaste!
[4:49 PM] BadGuyTy: take care
[4:50 PM] CosmicDruid π π π½: thanks!
[5:04 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): If there are no other items to discuss I will close the channel soon.
[5:11 PM] Someone_2: :rvn:
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[4:00 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Channel open
[5:40 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): :ah: we'll run this back next week
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[7:08 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Meeting Agenda: June 17, 2022
1.) P2SH release update (Progress on failing tests, updates on asset auditability)
2.) USDO Stablecoin Proposal (USDO has been off peg for many months, community member suggests re-evaluating funding goals)
To have your item added to the agenda please ping/DM me before Friday 4PM EST.
[4:00 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Channel open
[4:03 PM] ilaypipe: I brought to kinkajous attention the other day that usdo has been off peg for many months now and is still on the proposal list on the website. It was trading at $.68 when I checked yesterday
[4:04 PM] ilaypipe: Not sure if we can end that proposal and move funds donated there to new proposal. Just wanted the community and developers to see.
[4:06 PM] kralverde π€‘ πΊπΈ: i personally dont like stable coins
[4:06 PM] Baba Yaga CEO ΰΈΏ: :NM_peepoWave:
[4:09 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I have mixed feelings on stablecoins as well, particularly algorithmic stablecoins, but a good number of community members have donated to this proposal so if there is a problem with OpenDAO then perhaps those funds should go towards the other stablecoin proposal or put towards a general development fund (that actually gets used).
[4:10 PM] kralverde π€‘ πΊπΈ: do you know if any of the functional tests are still failing?
[4:11 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I was really hoping for an update from Tron this week. I haven't tested recently but I can't imagine there's any changes considering I haven't seen a new release
[4:15 PM] kralverde π€‘ πΊπΈ: I'll try and test with that PR tron mentions over the weekend… just have been really busy lately
[4:17 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I don't see any new PRs since Tron's message here: https://discord.com/channels/429127343165145089/482289959261175838/979846492846174270
[4:17 PM] kralverde π€‘ πΊπΈ: https://discord.com/channels/429127343165145089/482289959261175838/944344833110192178
[4:20 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Gotcha. I'm not sure if my tests included that or not. I will rebuild from develop(?) and re-test as well
[4:20 PM] kralverde π€‘ πΊπΈ: yeah from develop, but youll also need to merge it to your branch
[4:23 PM] ilaypipe: I can try and run a test as well this weekend
[4:26 PM] Tron: Yes. If the USDO project isn't working, we can end the proposal. I made some commitments to return funds over a certain $ amount to their sending address. Lower $ contributions can be switched.
[4:26 PM] kralverde π€‘ πΊπΈ: How would one go about testing the bip9 activation period change?
[4:27 PM] ilaypipe: Ok I was unsure the process that needs to be taken there. Thank you
[4:28 PM] Tron: It should've been done on the testnet. There's no good way to test it on mainnet. Although a few miners could run the new version to see it counting blocks.
[4:29 PM] Tron: BIP9 has been tested pretty well. I don't feel as confident with P2SH.
[4:29 PM] kralverde π€‘ πΊπΈ: I see
[4:30 PM] Tron: I'm still requesting for projects that need it. If anyone knows of any that are waiting, let me know.
[4:30 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Is it just the auditability or are there other concerns? Because auditing doesn't seem to be an issue.
wxRaven seems to be waiting on it
[4:31 PM] Tron: There's work (changing all nodes) and risk of unforseen issues. If there isn't enough reward, the risk isn't worth it.
[4:33 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): We've spent over a year working on this and telling the community it was coming soon. Tens of thousands of dollars spent on the code and two separate audits. You run the risk of destroying all credibility for Ravencoin development if we're going to shelve an objectively beneficial release because after 12 months it is suddenly too risky.
[4:33 PM] Tron: I ran a test, well not really a test because I needed it. I ran the new one with tx and address indexing on and got 0 balance back on an address w/RVN. Might be compiler related because I'm on M1 chip.
[4:36 PM] Tron: I get that. It adds some capabilities, but nobody (that I know of) is needing it. Every economic node must update or bad things happen. I don't have a full list or contacts for many of them.
[4:39 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Nobody "needs" Ravencoin at all. It is an improvement on the existing system. If it's a matter of contacting people then I'm happy to work with whomever or on my own rebuilding that list, but this is a lot of money, donated by the community, for something that the (vocal minority) community clearly supports. How can you expect anyone to ever donate to the foundation or any Ravencoin development/audits again if we shelve this now? Why would a dev build a product in anticipation of a new release if the history of Ravencoin is missing deadlines? I won't even work on P2pool because I can't even get devs to rally behind segwit
[4:41 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): We just lost one of our most talented core developers (fdov) this week because of our collective failure to progress development.
[4:42 PM] Sevvy: Yep
[4:42 PM] Sevvy: Things don't look great to me and I've been a basically evergreen supporter of this project
[4:43 PM] Sevvy: Disappointed to see stagnation for audit lead to "we don't need it"
[4:43 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): two separate audits
[4:46 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Honestly, if a multi-hundred-million dollar project like Ravencoin can't push out a simple release after spending upwards of $20k and 8-12months testing and developing then we deserve to fail.
[4:47 PM] Sevvy: It isn't clear to me why we are this risk averse.
[4:48 PM] Sevvy: Who is using ravencoin today or plans to use it tomorrow that cannot tolerate a risk
[4:49 PM] WhaleStreet: Does P2SH allow for assets to be held in a multisig?
[4:49 PM] Tron: Yes it does.
[4:49 PM] WhaleStreet: Without P2SH is that not possible ?
[4:50 PM] Tron: Shamir Secret Sharing allows key splitting in any ratio. 2 of 2, 6 of 15, 2 of 3, etc.
[4:51 PM] WhaleStreet: Moontree has no concrete plans at this time, but we have discussed making it easy for users to create multisigs where multiple users can create a mulisig and then request for signing of the other signatories.
[4:51 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Also, isn't this the whole reason we increased the activation window? So we could get all the economic actors on board?
[4:53 PM] WhaleStreet: I believe this is a good use case for businesses as it would allow them to easily store their holdings without the need for cold storage.
[4:54 PM] WhaleStreet: *as an alternative to cold storage.
[4:55 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Additionally, HTLCs would allow users to exchange Ravencoin Assets directly for Bitcoin
[4:56 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): If the whole point of Ravencoin is assets idk why we'd object to more functionality/liquidity. If everything goes according to plan we are eventually going to have more assets on chain than RVN.
[4:56 PM] Tron: Have HTLCs been tested on testnet?
[4:57 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Yes Hans_Schmidt tested them and wrote something up I'll try to find it
[4:57 PM] Tron: I'm not against activation of P2SH. I'm just questioning the risk vs reward.
[4:58 PM] Sevvy: What is the risk precisely
[4:58 PM] WhaleStreet: Unknown Unknowns
[4:58 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): https://hans-schmidt.github.io/mastering_ravencoin/analysis/HTLC_P2SH_Cross-Chain_Atomic_Swaps_RVN-Assets_With_BTC.html
[4:59 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): That's a risk with any code update. Even the ones without a hardfork. As we have experienced firsthand.
[5:00 PM] WhaleStreet: Agreed which is why forks have to be taken very seriously and cautiously.
[5:01 PM] Tron: The chain stopping or as yet unknown bugs causing issues (a fork). And economic actors (exchanges and swap sites) not switching when 85 or 90 percent of the hash power does.
[5:01 PM] WhaleStreet: Risk: Chain blows up
Reward: Moontree and maybe some other business can add functionality that not many will use (as of now).
[5:01 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): two separate audits
[5:02 PM] Kai.: ravencoin is an experiment though, no problem.
[5:02 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I challenge anyone here to find me a single other crypto project that has paid for two security audits for the same release.
[5:02 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Wtf we pay them for if we're still worried?
[5:02 PM] Kai.: you won't find that. lol
[5:03 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): At this pace we could've also waited for trail of bits. Might as well hop on their waitlist now
[5:04 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Let's do a third audit
[5:09 PM] Hans_Schmidt: 1) I believe that HTLC works properly with the P2SH implementation. I did one successfully, which is not an exhaustive test but encouraging
2) You don't need P2SH to do Multisig. The bitcoin CHECKMULTISIG opcode can be used to do up to 15-of-15. But it generates larger transactions than P2SH which therefore have higher fees. P2SH is really only needed for cross-chain atomic swaps of assets.
3) The community has done some testing of P2SH. But I'm not sure that it could be called rigorous by strict software testing methodology yardsticks. The security audits really only look at security and are fairly irrelevant to functionality. And if unintended functionality results in security side-effects, that's a grey area that I doubt they would find.
4) Nothing is risk-free.
[5:11 PM] Tron: If 4.7 is better UI and works as well or better (under current consensus rules) we could release it with a long activation window and reasonably high activation threshold get more usage on mainnet.
[5:14 PM] Tron: If there is a strong uptake by miners, there would need to be a concerted all-hands effort to get the economic actors notified and updated.
[5:15 PM] Tron: Exchanges that don't update can lose their shirts as pre-fork (duplicate) RVN is sold for real whatever.
[5:19 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): We can start working on that now. Can also do more extensive testing on P2SH. I've been doing everything manually which is slow but theoretically shouldn't be too hard to build a test harness (though I've no experience with that either aside from schoolwork). Do we have a list of exchanges/other economic actors we've lost contact with?
[5:22 PM] Tron: I think I have a list from a previous round of notifications. I lost access to some resources in the move from Medici to the foundation. I'll search for it and let you know.
[5:24 PM] LSJI07: Once the release is out, the community can get behind something and actually make a choice and educate people more ond the decision. For P2SH or against and if against running and keeping the older version without P2SH.
[5:24 PM] Sevvy: Not to detail this like of conversation but is there any progress with bittrex
[5:25 PM] LSJI07: What is the current activation threshold? Are we happy with it.
[5:26 PM] LSJI07: Im happy with 75 percent and over.
[5:26 PM] Sevvy: Probably needs to be closer to 90 or above for something like this
[5:28 PM] Sevvy: What did taproot demand
[5:29 PM] LSJI07: I'm happy with 90. Thing is it only takes one miner with 10 percent of the hash to stop it. That said. Im patient.
[5:29 PM] Sevvy: Hey what's another 18 months
[5:29 PM] Sevvy: π¬
[5:29 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I believe we just raised it from 70% to 80% when we increased the activation time from 2016 to 20160
[5:30 PM] Sevvy: Asset layer demanded 90
[5:30 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): this is a much smaller change. we're just adding something for assets that RVN already has and honestly should already have been in place IMO
[5:31 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/pull/1124/files
[5:32 PM] WhaleStreet: Really important. If we can't get them to update/fix their node now, I'm not convinced we will be able to get them ready in time for a fork.
[5:33 PM] Mango Farm: 4.7 (or 8, not sure which) fixed a rawtransaction asset memo bug that was stripping the back part of the output. Not a major issue for us (we built an API around the experimental release for asset memo sends only), but wanted to note that there are some functional improvements in the new releases that are important, in addition to GUI improvements.
[5:34 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Didn't 4.8 solve the sync issue many were experiencing as well?
[5:35 PM] Mango Farm: Yes but I don't think the sync issue exists in the production release, I think that was a bugfix for something introduced in 4.7. I could be wrong. Hans would know.
[5:35 PM] Tron: Is that rawtransaction change compatible with the current consensus rules?
[5:36 PM] Mango Farm: I assume so, since it's not p2SH dependent. Just a bug in asset memo send raw transactions.
[5:37 PM] LSJI07: If it gets accepted during the voting period of circa 1 month, it will be another month afterwards approx before the hardfork will lockin to buy slow economic actors time to update. I think 2 months is more than sufficent and its possible they will have longer if it doesnt pass the first cycle etc etc.
[5:39 PM] Mango Farm: Tron I think this was the one – https://github.com/RavenProject/Ravencoin/pull/1113
[5:39 PM] Jeroz: I have the 4.2 list
[5:39 PM] Hans_Schmidt: The testnet sync issue was a bug in the handling of cache of restricted asset qualifiers. It is present in all previous versions of core including v4.3.2.1 and mainnet. We probably haven't seen it because it requires that you do some fairly odd things.
[5:39 PM] Mango Farm: π
[5:41 PM] LSJI07: We would never do odd things while working on our favorite cutting edge experimental project. π
[5:42 PM] Hans_Schmidt: The rawtransaction bug iirc was a bug which prevented core from generating the transactions correctly in those cases. But it didn't change consensus or prevent you from hand-assembling the transaction or writing code which could.
[5:45 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Well they have to be odd and (un)lucky enough to hit the cache in a certain sequence. Rather esoteric.
[6:52 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I'll go ahead and close the channel. Great meeting! Thanks for coming, everyone
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[4:00 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Channel open
[4:06 PM] Tron: Hi all.
[4:07 PM] Tron: I guess last weekβs chat sparked some conversation.
[4:08 PM] Tron: I agreed to do a Twitter Spaces by Morgan at 3pm ET on Wednesday the 29th.
[4:14 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): And I took a look at the contact list you sent. I sent you a message because I couldn't see revision history to gauge how old these entries were but after speaking with Jeroz and looking at some of the contacts/deprecated projects I'm assuming it's entirely old stuff so I will get to updating the list using the CMC/coingecko/whattomine APIs.
If anyone knows of any additional resources I could use to compile a list of all current RVN exchanges/pools please ping/DM me. I think there are quite a few smaller pools not listed on whattomine I need to track down.
[4:17 PM] Tron: Take a look at CoinMarketCap.com for RVN markets. It is most important that we get exchanges. Most of the swap sites rely on the exchanges.
[4:18 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): Right, that's what I was referring to with "CMC". Sorry, should've been more clear
[4:26 PM] Mango Farm: I updated the list of pools on the insight explorer about a year ago – some on this list are still current but there are a number of unknowns. In case it helps. https://explorer.mangofarmassets.com/pools
[4:27 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I'm sure it will, thank you!!
[4:27 PM] Mango Farm: π
[5:27 PM] Jeroz: Im actually in contact with CMC. Seems they are willing to work with me to update the explorer api endpoint.
I am discussing with Unclear to work some last kinks out and make sure the explorer numbers also fully reflect the numbers that are reported by the node itself.
[6:26 PM] kinkajou (SegWit Clique): I'll close the channel now. Thanks for coming everyone
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