Dev Meeting Transcript (May 14, 2021)

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Dev Meeting Transcript (May 14, 2021)

[4:03 PM] Tron: Anyone here?

[4:03 PM] unclear: Yeap

[4:04 PM] HyperPeek: Yes :slight_smile:

[4:04 PM] mikehoncho: Hello

[4:05 PM] Tron: Hello.

[4:06 PM] unclear: Quite silent today. Do we have an agenda?

[4:07 PM] SVY: Good day

[4:08 PM] Tron: I don't have an agenda.

[4:09 PM] sirrumz: Hello

[4:10 PM] mikehoncho: It is my understanding that Rosetta was recently completed and an applicatoin to Coinbase was re-submitted?

[4:12 PM] Tron: I didn't re-submit to Coinbase yet. Has someone else done that? If not, I'll re-submit.

[4:13 PM] Ben: someone tweeted saying the submission has been made

[4:13 PM] Ben:

[4:13 PM] unclear: Yeap, this is what I was typing

[4:14 PM] Tron: That was me. Application has been submitted, but not re-submitted (with addition of information and links to Rosetta-API).

[4:14 PM] Tron: DOGE is being added to Coinbase in about 2 months.

[4:14 PM] brianmct: Probably good to have someone from the foundation submit it

[4:14 PM] Ben: oh, gotcha. yea, if someone can re-submit now i think we are ready from our side

[4:15 PM] unclear: Ben maybe you can share about atomic swap you was developing this week. I was looking with one eye only because of issued with Solus hosting

[4:15 PM] Ben: for sure, i've been playing around with atomic swaps on-chain. I've put together a script for it in #ravenqt-sig-working and have done 4 swaps so far (on mainnet)

[4:16 PM] Ben: only requires RPC, and allows you to build a one-sided purchase/sel request and the other party can complete it at-will (as long as the utxo is still valid)

[4:16 PM] HyperPeek: Can confirm it works perfect :slight_smile:

[4:16 PM] SVY: awesome

[4:17 PM] Ben: i'm working on making some improvements today, should have it out soon-ish

[4:17 PM] Tron: I'll re-submit.

[4:18 PM] RamboNTanga: Hello guys, do we know what is requested from Uphold, to get listed there too?

[4:18 PM] Ben: example:

[4:19 PM] Hans_Schmidt: It's on-chain swap (not cross-chain) but very useful because it is 2-step. Just make an offer and anybody can take it. Great usability improvement.

[4:19 PM] Ben: Gonna be even better soon! 🙂

[4:20 PM] Tron: I don't know. I'm still trying get the foundation corporate account wired up to Brave's Content Creator account so the foundation can accept tips in BAT.

[4:20 PM] Tron: If anyone has a link to submit RVN for acceptance, please send it to me.

[4:22 PM] unclear: Ben shold we think to integrate swap announcements to the explorer that everyone can see that there is an open proposal?

[4:22 PM] Ben: I would love to do that. The idea is we can publish these requests through as many side channels as we want

[4:22 PM] sirrumz:

[4:23 PM] unclear: Ok, I think we need a dedicated sig for atomic

[4:24 PM] Ben: Not sure the best way to detect since they are a vanilla tx just with custom vins vouts

[4:24 PM] Tron: That looks like an application — for an APP (not a coin) to integrate.

[4:24 PM] sirrumz: Ah I see

[4:24 PM] Hans_Schmidt: You could detect the custom SIGHASH

[4:25 PM] Ben: Oh yea, thats be the way

[4:25 PM] Ben: Look for vin0 and vout0 being sighash single

[4:25 PM] unclear: I.e. scan mempool for custom SIGHASH and list it

[4:26 PM] HyperPeek: Putting the swap into electrum should be quite straight forward. The question is the announcement — could be down in p2p of nodes or separate, e.g. special db in electrum

[4:26 PM] Ben: The partial isnt announced in mempool or on chain, those have to be announced through like discord or any side channel

[4:26 PM] HyperPeek: Its only on chain after fully matched.

[4:27 PM] unclear: Aha, I see

[4:27 PM] Ben: Orders are good for as long as the utxo is valid

[4:28 PM] unclear: But partial tx can be then published somewhere to be picked up by anyone interested

[4:28 PM] Ben: Yup

[4:28 PM] Ben: That's the ideal, we just need to make it easy to build and complete on in ui

[4:28 PM] Hans_Schmidt: A dedicated SIG for Atomic Swaps is worth consideration. In addition to Ben's on-chain swap project, we will need some focus on dev & integration for P2SH cross-chain swaps. This is what Ravencoin was built for.

[4:28 PM] unclear: And explorer can scan if utxo is invalidated (spent) then discard the proposal

[4:29 PM] HyperPeek: Ahh thats a good point actually.

[4:29 PM] HyperPeek: It would only know of the existence from side channel though

[4:29 PM] SVY: the power of lyer 1 UTXO assets multiplied by atomic swaps is something I've looked forward to for a long time. I remember when Mango Farm first began working on atomic swaps and my hairs stood up

[4:30 PM] Tron: On-chain proposal announcements could be implemented using IPFS under a specific token without a central server being needed.

[4:30 PM] Ben: I submitted rip15 documenting the process btw

[4:30 PM] Ben: So anyone can start building these to spec

[4:31 PM] brianmct: what's the process for RIPs to be reviewed / accepted into the RavenProject github repo btw?

[4:31 PM] Tron: Can you add RIP15 here?



Ravencoin Improvement Proposal. Contribute to RavenProject/rips development by creating an account on GitHub.

[4:32 PM] Ben: I submitted a pr to that

[4:32 PM] Tron: Whoops. Thank you!!!!

[4:32 PM] Ben: Np! 🙂

[4:33 PM] Tron: Merged.

[4:34 PM] RamboNTanga: I have submitted a ticket support with Uphold to get information on what is needed to enlist in their platform

[4:34 PM] Mango Farm: Is there a way we can get IPFS hashes in transaction memos for RVN sends? Currently afaik the RPC call for asset transfers is the only way.

[4:35 PM] Mango Farm: The reason I ask…

[4:35 PM] Mango Farm: Alice can send an asset with an IPFS message to her own address to list it. The message contains the price or whatever. The IPFS message can have a standardized JSON so that explorers know it's a swap listing. Bob can publish a response by sending just above dust to the Alice address with an IPFS hash in OP_RETURN (it would be ideal if we could have this RPC call). That IPFS hash would have the PSRT for the swap. Alice can hit the bid by signing.

[4:36 PM] Mango Farm: This would be a purely decentralized swap.

[4:37 PM] Hans_Schmidt: This scheme is simpler- Alice's offer is pre-signed. 2 steps, not 3.

[4:37 PM] Mango Farm: Understood but there needs to be a transmission mechanism.

[4:37 PM] Mango Farm: Which means a server.

[4:37 PM] Mango Farm: Most auctions are something offered, bid, and acceptance. Both are good.

[4:38 PM] Mango Farm: Would be interesting if we could get it completely on chain via IPFS transmission too.

[4:40 PM] Mango Farm: One of the reasons I put this to the side a little was because I couldn't figure out a way to do it peer-to-peer without mango farm in the middle. Maybe it's as simple as above?

[4:40 PM] mikehoncho: Allowing IPFS hashes in transaction memos would open up a lot of new potential use-cases for RVN IMO

[4:40 PM] Mango Farm: We have them for assets, but not RVN (so far as I know). It would be awesome.

[4:41 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Yea, this scheme is offer- take it or leave it, no bids. But still, you are correct that the mechanism to send and cancel offers should be standardized.

[4:41 PM] mikehoncho: Yes, I learned this the other day as I mistakenly thought we already had them. It would be great for more decentralized web3 applications.

[4:42 PM] Ben: There will always be some side channel and the nicety is that we can make as many side channels as we want

[4:42 PM] Mango Farm: Ben do you think your script could incorporate IPFS in this way?

[4:42 PM] Mango Farm: Cool

[4:43 PM] Ben: I mean, there are ways you could do it, in a lot of cases you have to make a utxo to yourself for the order, so you could tag that somehow

[4:43 PM] Mango Farm: If we went the IPFS route as an option, all the tx data would also be on chain. All it woudl require is the ability to set up an IPFS channel with the RVN send from Bob to the Alice "listing address"

[4:43 PM] Mango Farm: The UTXO is created by the Alice asset-to-address send

[4:43 PM] Mango Farm: At time of listing

[4:43 PM] Mango Farm: that can have IPFS listing data

[4:44 PM] HyperPeek: I think this should ultimately be done in a wallet, so anyone can just create / search / fullfill as desired with the wallet checking side-channel.

[4:44 PM] Mango Farm: it's the bob part that's tricky because currently he can't add an IPFS hash on chain with a RVN send

[4:44 PM] Mango Farm: (unless OP_RETURN is used)

[4:44 PM] Mango Farm: Anyway passing it along I've been doing alot of thinking lately on it

[4:45 PM] unclear: I think it can be done in qt, but would require an index

[4:45 PM] brianmct: the overhead here can get pretty large though right? If we keep all offers (accepted and unaccepted) on-chain

[4:45 PM] brianmct: searching through historical offers etc could get rather resource intensive

[4:45 PM] HyperPeek: Yes — so we thought might be easier in electrum with an additional database

[4:45 PM] Jon Snow: bless yer heart is busy I am essentially covering but tron got it rolling haha. he is taking notes later

[4:46 PM] Ben: you often have to setup these trades, since a buy order can only be made with a single vin/vout, so currently a buy order of 10x <asset> @ 5RVN each means you need to transfer yourself 50RVN exactly, and that utxo is used to setup the order

[4:47 PM] Ben: but you would need the txid which you don't have until its published

[4:47 PM] brianmct: this makes me think that the offer generation process will need to be integrated into the wallet, but the offer advertisement / discovery could be a separate server / website / etc

[4:48 PM] Tron: Should we add an issue for putting IPFS and (OIP hash) in the OP_RETURN and wiring it up to the indexing and message reporting RPC calls?

[4:48 PM] Ben: yea, it will in some manner

[4:48 PM] Mango Farm: I think this could be put to good use

[4:48 PM] Ben: what would be indexed by OP_RETURN calls?

[4:49 PM] brianmct: IMO for mass adoption of RVN assets we will need web-friendly integration for order placement / discovery and for asset viewing. Opensea is a good model for a fully-featured / mainstream DEX for NFTs

[4:49 PM] unclear: OP_SWAP ? :rolling_eyes:

[4:50 PM] RealBokito | @Jeroz we may want to look at the numbering of the RIPs

we got two RIP15 now

[4:50 PM] Ben: i dont think theres a need for OP_SWAP, this works pretty well as-is. a 3-step swap can even mint an asset with funds from a third party

[4:51 PM] fdov: New opcodes should be avoided if possible.

[4:51 PM] Mango Farm: brianmct – have had a one-pager that does the swap for a year with the data keyed to IPFS. I just didn't know a way to do it without the web server. Doing on the web would be straightforward.

[4:51 PM] Mango Farm: It would be better p2p

[4:52 PM] Ben: yea, the script takes out all the vout stuff, and reduces it to just side-channel comms

[4:52 PM] Ben: if we can build that stuff into wallet it will be awesome

[4:52 PM] brianmct: IMO we shouldn't let perfect be the good here; I agree ideally we have a fully decentralized method for offer discovery etc but I think most people prefer ease-of-use. A server-based method for order discovery/matching would be perfectly sufficient for most peoples' usecases

[4:52 PM] Mango Farm: Agree technically. That server may have legal issues to deal with before allowing things to run

[4:52 PM] Ben: i'm working on a good solution i think for the interim solution to having something built in-wallet

[4:52 PM] brianmct: Keep in mind that most people don't even use the core wallet since it requires syncing chain etc

[4:53 PM] Ben: we could even just have a channel in the server for announcing swaps

[4:53 PM] Mango Farm: Awesome

[4:53 PM] Ben: whats the most common then?

[4:53 PM] Ben: my solution required RPC to function

[4:53 PM] brianmct: I think a lot of people use electrum with ledger, or mobile wallets

[4:54 PM] Mango Farm: Hosting a server where people trade crypto assets is tricky, because people can trade all sorts of things (some of which may be verboten)

[4:54 PM] unclear: Would be interesting stats..

[4:55 PM] Tron: The IPFS or OIP hash would go into the OP_RETURN. There are two bytes that determine the type. Total of 34 bytes for either IPFS or OIP hash. OP_RETURN can hold 80 bytes. This should be able to be added without a hard or soft fork.

[4:55 PM] Hans_Schmidt: IPFS and (OIP hash) in the OP_RETURN may have useful application

But for SIGHASH|SINGLE you really need a database tightly integrated with a wallet. Electrum seems an good fit. The servers can gossip to agree on the database

[4:55 PM] brianmct: so I think the first step here is to get user-friendly ways to generate the asset offers (on core / electrum would be a good start). After we have that solved we can look into offer advertisement/discovery mechanisms

[4:55 PM] unclear: But RPC is easy to integrate with any 3rd party via API or direct call

[4:56 PM] brianmct: yeah; I was wondering if Mango Farm could look into getting a Create asset buy/sel offer functionality into Mango wallet 😉

[4:57 PM] Mango Farm: The UI is a pain but the functional code for that is done Brian

[4:57 PM] HyperPeek: Should be no problem to put the partial swap etc. into rpc calls, but sidechannel stuff is difficult in core.

[4:57 PM] brianmct: PocketRaven could also be interesting since it already has functionality for manually constructing / viewing / signing / broadcasting transactions

[4:57 PM] brianmct: not sure if Traysi is still around though

[4:58 PM] unclear: I think in any solution tx index is required to track utxo validity.

[4:59 PM] brianmct: oh true. Could maybe use explorer API to check utxo validity?

[4:59 PM] Mango Farm: Yeah core doesn't have the ability to read IPFS

[4:59 PM] Mango Farm: electrum is probably the better route

[4:59 PM] unclear: So, momentarily it can be ipfs or electrum, but to keep live list you would need 2nd layer

[4:59 PM] fdov: I don't want core to read IPFS, any time soon.

[5:00 PM] Ben: agreed, it opens up too many security issues/edge cases

[5:00 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Adding a few raven-qt RPC calls to simplify creating partial transaction and completing is fine. But offer tracking, validity checking, and good UI has to be ouside raven-qt

[5:01 PM] fdov: rpc + some qt gui to help make/take the partials should be fine.

[5:02 PM] Ben: QT client can do validity checking though, since they are standard tx's and can be inspected as normal to the qt ui

[5:02 PM] Ben: a side-channel can auto-delist entries when the utxo is spent, but thats a minor issue down the road

[5:03 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Agreed. But it would be best not to require everyone to have a node with full indexing.

[5:03 PM] brianmct: for a buy offer you would need to check validity for a utxo in someone else's wallet right? so it would require txindex I think?

[5:03 PM] Ben: both, buy and sel. utxo for RVN or utxo for assets, still utxo either way

[5:03 PM] Mango Farm: If you can get the partials on chain via IPFS (memos on the asset side; OP_RETURN on the RVN side) then UI interfaces and externals could tap into it from the chain, without any direct connection to the maker or taker. This could be brilliant.

[5:04 PM] Mango Farm: An asset send creates a channel, a RVN send of some small amount makes a bid, and the bid gets hit and signed.

[5:04 PM] Ben: something somethig messaging assets?

[5:04 PM] Mango Farm: Data is on chain, but the UI can be off chain.

[5:05 PM] unclear: The problem is that since announcement and before acceptance, source utxo can be spent. And this should invalidate the offer

[5:05 PM] Ben: have not looked at them at all so dont know what they can really do, would they have any use here?

[5:05 PM] unclear: As soon as utxo in the mempool

[5:06 PM] Mango Farm: Absolutely. All the partial TX data can be put into IPFS, and IPFS can be carried on chain for anyone to see and grab.

[5:07 PM] Ben: i mean so the messaging nature, so we could just "publish" buy orders by sending messages with assets in some manner, but i'm guessing only the admin holder can send messages?

[5:07 PM] Mango Farm: No any asset TX can carry a message

[5:08 PM] Mango Farm: and OP_RETURN can carry the bid

[5:08 PM] Mango Farm: which is a PSRT

[5:08 PM] unclear: How it can be marked afterwards that it is no longer can be grabbed?

[5:08 PM] brianmct: for what it's worth, the signed offer isn't that large (only like 200 bytes or so) so it's also theoretically possible to store it in multiple (3?) OP_RETURNs on-chain without IPFS

[5:09 PM] Mango Farm: It depends on how many UTXOs the counterparty is putting into the partially signed tx but good point it's not that large

[5:09 PM] Ben: example: 02000000014616a466dd04bb302ea58fb4ae1661c27af407d4788a3ba3ba7b81749f408baa000000006a4730440220059c767f56c74f7d91b6df6d9ae1c4084662005757d14764777e3279bee4724c02205b2f24345c9dfccc94375315077a123ef37f85d0598804baa53005f6b5ce0f2a832102f55cfbe7f138b131c21752170e83f191388fe079f4f2d94db17653f6558a005c000000000100000000000000003176a914072852ee1ffa3bd8506fb61784d9a23571ff7d2288acc01572766e74085343414d434f494e00e40b54020000007500000000

[5:09 PM] brianmct: but also probably good to keep the data off-chain to avoid chain size bloat

[5:09 PM] Ben: (thats live btw :slight_smile: )

[5:10 PM] Ben: brianmct that is definietly a concern of mine

[5:10 PM] Ben: i imagine this scaling to automated systems and the bloat would be huge

[5:10 PM] brianmct: yup

[5:10 PM] brianmct: IMO it's a plus that in the current system only completed orders are recorded on-chain

[5:10 PM] Ben: IMO: we don't publish swaps on chains, but we make it really easy with integrations/gui/p2p/whatever to find/complete swaps

[5:11 PM] Ben: we make built-in method, but totally support third-party as well 100%

[5:12 PM] M4R1M0: It could also be used for other applications aside from just carrying tx data. For example, confirming a user registration on a decentralized platform.

[5:12 PM] brianmct: (btw, looks like we're over time on the development meeting; do people want to continue here or should we move this to another channel?)

[5:12 PM] fdov: was there an agenda today?

[5:12 PM] brianmct: nope

[5:12 PM] brianmct: it just turned into a free-form discussion

[5:12 PM] fdov: ok, if anyone have running testnet nodes, please update to 4.7.0test1.

[5:13 PM] fdov: If you want a new release, please help testing:

[5:13 PM] Jon Snow: was there anything else important that needs discussing?

[5:13 PM] Jon Snow: speak now

[5:13 PM] Tron: Just FYI, I am taking 10 days off, so I will miss the next two dev mtgs. I can be reached in an emergency.

[5:13 PM] Jeroz: They aren’t in core right now.

[5:14 PM] brianmct: Ben 's RIP15 just got merged into core:


RIP15 – User-Friendly Atomic Swap Process by ben-abraham · Pull Req…

This RIP outlines a user-friendly manner for performing 2-step on-chain atomic swaps between users. Allowing a buy or sel order to be openly published and completed by any other user, assuming the…

[5:14 PM] Tron: I routed to Solus explorer testnet for now.

[5:14 PM] Ben: guess mines the official one now :rofl:

[5:14 PM] RealBokito | I just renumbered mine :sweat_smile:

[5:15 PM] Ben: sorry RealBokito |

[5:15 PM] Jon Snow: Tron i think we were going to discuss offloading bounty assignment, but that can wait until you get back. I saw in the notes along with the list of things you wanted to offload. We will break that list into pieces and start recruiting for different parts.

[5:15 PM] Hans_Schmidt: Everyone- please help with raven-qt-v4.7 testing. The things that still need testing are listed at Please leave comments

[5:15 PM] RealBokito | and sent a PR (first ever :slight_smile: )

[5:15 PM] fdov: Tron aware of one claiming to be testnet.ravencoin.org35.238.238.24 ?

[5:15 PM] Ben: !tipbot RealBokito | 10

[5:15 PM]



:money_with_wings::moneybag:Ravencoin (RVN) Transaction Completed!:moneybag::money_with_wings:




RealBokito |







[5:15 PM] Tron: It's as official as anything gets in this decentralized ecosystem. Great explorer BTW.

[5:15 PM] RealBokito | :thumbsup: thnx

[5:16 PM] RealBokito | nothing better than sweet 16 guys!

[5:17 PM] Tron: I'll make the same change there.

[5:17 PM] Jon Snow: In need of help with P2SH asset testing and Swaps. Item from list

[5:17 PM] brianmct: alright; if there's nothing else I'll close the channel – see you all next week! We can continue discussions in the relevant development channels

[5:17 PM] Jon Snow: Looks like rosetta is done, thank you Ben and team

[5:17 PM] Mango Farm: Have a great week all

[5:17 PM] Ben: welcome!

[5:18 PM] Ben: have a good weekend too!

[5:18 PM] Tron: Thanks everyone!!!

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